I couldn't leave it like that

Interview with Marie Oláhová

Marie Oláhová is the founder of the Union of Roma Maternity Centres. How she came to found the Union, what her mission is, what motivates her work and much more can be found in the interview in which we tried to map her long activist career. The interview was conducted by Peter Vittek and Eva Riečanská from the Utopia Association. The author of the photos is Jaromír Salaj.

Marie Oláhová has never been able to come to terms with injustice. Her personal story is full of dramatic twists and turns, but also of determination and will to confront problems and difficult situations and fight the worst consequences of social exclusion and segregation. And to succeed. Formerly a crane operator in Podpolianské strojárny, today primarily a well-known folklorist, social and community worker and feminist, known to many mainly by the name of Maryša.

Slovenčina

You have been working with children for a long time in the Rómka ensemble, which has been active in Detva for more than 30 years. What brought you to the ensemble?

In 1987, when the ensemble was founded, I knew almost nothing about Roma folklore. Mainly because I grew up among the Roma in the Czech Republic. But I always liked it very much and sometimes I would play some folklore music from CDs. Once we saw the ensemble at a fair and my daughters, who were four and five at the time, liked it very much. I took them to the audition and they were accepted. After about six months, it became apparent that the troupe needed an adult to be responsible for the kids on the road. Juraj Berky and Lubo Olah, who founded the troupe, were not yet of age and talked me into helping them. They said I wouldn't have to do anything. Since I was going to rehearsals with my daughters anyway, I accepted the offer. I didn't want the ensemble to fall apart.

You say you knew almost nothing about folklore. But you found yourself in a folklore ensemble which began to thrive under your leadership. Who prepared the programme and how did your relationship with folklore develop?

When I started, the Roma women in Detva sang mostly Slovak songs. I started looking for material. I had to dig very deep and go to old people who still remembered the Roma ones. They would sing them to me and I would record them. My mother-in-law knew a lot of the songs. I wanted to include them in the programme. I tried to distinguish which were authentic and which were modern. The youth preferred the modern ones. They were more cutting and they liked them more. But I knew that if we pulled out the old jewels and cleaned them properly, our program would be more valuable. Eventually I convinced the young performers and success came. We were performing songs that no one had heard in a long time. We reminded the Roma about them and they were delighted. And we also got recognition from the non-Roma and folklorists. In addition to singing and dancing, we included elements of musical theatre and spoken word. We adapted the fairy tales The Wicked Blacksmith by Daniela Šilanová and Sunshine by Elena Lacková. And in order to make the non-Roma audience understand what we were singing about, we adapted the choreography to the lyrics.

Who did you consult with about your findings?

Over time, I met ethnologist Jana Belišová, who was collecting material all over Slovakia. I became part of her team, which was a great honour for me. Another wonderful person, the folklorist Milka Sekerešová from Detva, also helped me. When I needed advice, she never turned me down. She willingly answered all my lay questions about choreography or clothes. I also did my own research. I went to Ostrava Luka, where the district archive was. I was looking for songs from the time when the Roma immigrated to Detva. I wanted to know where they lived and what they wore. I learned that they worked in the fields and helped with the harvest. Sometimes they were paid in "kind". They were given a shirt, a skirt, a coat or a scarf and they combined these with the clothes they had at home. The girls in the troupe at that time had seen the movie Gypsies Go to Heaven and wanted to dress like it. But I always said that when we perform as a Detvian troupe, we should stick to our history. I was inspired by old photographs and started dressing them differently. Each one had a different skirt, a different shirt, a different blouse, and some even had a jacket and a hat on their head.

How does a folklorist and troupe leader also become a social worker and community organizer?

I'll start a bit broadly. Before 1989, most of Detvian Roma were employed in Podpolianske strojarni. After 1989, however, the machine works began to lay off workers. And it was the Roma who were the first to be laid off. Almost all of them were suddenly unemployed. It was a completely new experience for which nobody was prepared, because the Roma in Detva had always been hardworking. Many of them had no money to pay the rent. At that time, nobody really knew what opportunities the unemployed had. Half a year passed before the necessary information was disseminated. But in that six months, debts were incurred. And the question of what to do with them. The situation got even worse when the debt started to be compounded by heavy penalties. Later, when people registered with the authorities and received at least some benefits, they were no longer able to repay the debts. Gradually, their way of life began to change. Previously, they had led a completely peaceful and trouble-free life. Nobody was dealing with any "Roma problem". However, the new situation contributed to the fact that the view of the Roma began to change.

How?

At that time, one of the mayoral candidates made a promise to the voters that he would relocate all the indebted Roma to the outskirts of the city. And when he became mayor, he fulfilled his promise, and a rather large ghetto was created. It consisted of three apartment blocks, which we used to call 'Greenhouses'. They were the buildings of the former dormitories on Štúrova Street, where Arabs and Vietnamese used to live, who used to go to work in the machine shops. Very few families remained in their original apartments. It was a terrible disaster. The new housing was cramped. One kitchen, one room. People had lived in a very different way and in much bigger flats. Serious problems began to arise in the ghetto. And almost all the children from the troupe lived there. And it was through my work in the ensemble that I got information about the problems at Štúrova. We were no longer only involved in singing, dancing or Roma folklore. We started to deal with the problems of whole families. I jumped in. I didn't know what I was getting myself into, but I couldn't leave it at that.

What did you do?

I asked myself why people live in such conditions and how to help them. Among other things, the 'Greenhouses' had one of the highest rents in Detva. There were 38 flats in the whole building and only one or two electricity and water meters. The problem arose of how to pay the electricity and water bills. One family was sent an electricity bill for 25 thousand crowns, another for 8 thousand crowns. Nobody could prove that they had not consumed 25 thousand worth of electricity. We started to fight the problems. At that time I had no idea that I was actually doing social work. I started studying it later, when the department of Roma culture was established in Nitra. And I was kind of forced to do it by the children from the ensemble.

How did the situation in the "Greenhouses" develop?

In 2000 we founded the association Club Together. All the children from the ensemble lived with their families in the ghetto. The situation on the ground was bad. There were many people living in a small area who had big problems. Both financial and psychological. They often quarreled. In some cases they lived up to eight in one small apartment. There were no non-Romani people walking down the street around the "Greenhouses" at that time, even though it was closer to the city or to the hotel where they used to go for lunch. We wanted to deal with folklore, but it was also necessary to deal with the environment in which the children lived. I said to myself: "Let's go to the fire." We found a space in one of the three houses mentioned above. We were given two apartments, which we gradually renovated. At first we didn't do folklore or social work, but we started cleaning. At first it was just me and my husband. We dragged it out like that for about three weeks. When someone threw a garbage bag out the window, I went and picked it up. But I cursed and yelled so much while I was doing it that everybody heard it. And I yelled the name of the person who threw the bag away. Maybe that's when they entered their conscience.

How did it manifest itself?

One Saturday I went to the centre and all the Roma were outside. They were raking, sweeping and drinking coffee together. They were fixing the broken benches. They made a sandpit for the children. I didn't know if someone from an office was coming... They told me they weren't supposed to listen to me shout. And so we started doing voluntary jobs even twice a week. The area around the apartment blocks and the paths in the neighbourhood were suddenly clean. Even the employment office noticed. They said they could help us. We registered and employed six women. Since then, the corridors in the prefabs have been washed, rubbish has been collected outside, and mowing and painting have been done. When other Roma saw this, they started to volunteer. Later, some of them also became employees. Gradually I gained trust. When they went somewhere for a beer, they said that it looked good at the "Greenhouses". Sometimes it was cleaner there than in the housing estate where the non-Roma live. It encouraged them. And people from the city started to walk around "Greenhouses" again. It was our victory.

But you didn't rest on your laurels...

It was just the beginning. We wanted to keep order. That's why we set up an informal house administration. Even then, I worked more with women than men. I called them into a club. I told them that we would form an informal group to negotiate with the municipality and go to the council. We started to fight for a reduction in the outrageously high rents, which did not correspond to the quality of the housing. All the people in 'Greenhouses' were in material need. The city should have allocated them flats on housing estates in the city because the rents were cheaper there. Disputes arose about which flats were social. We wanted the city to categorise the flats. I started to prepare the women from the "Greenhouses" for the negotiations with the council. We "practiced" for a month before we went to the office. We caused a big shock there. The women knew how to express themselves and understood the issues. The city started to take us as partners and the deputy mayor started coming to our centre. We met and looked for solutions. It took four years.

What have you come to?

We argued that in this environment the situation in families will not improve, but, on the contrary, will worsen. There was a ticking time bomb in the city. We asked if the local government would do something about it. We even filed a lawsuit against the city. In the end, however, we got a better idea: we invited Klára Orgovánová, who was then the government's plenipotentiary, to Detva. We explained to her what the situation was like in the "Skleníky" area. She told us that the town could get funds for the reconstruction of several houses. Not far from the "Greenhouses" there were other unused dormitories for Vietnamese. The city renovated them and moved us in. The "Greenhouses" were demolished and the land sold to a hypermarket.

What were the new homes like?

The great thing was that the renovated houses were not only one-bedroom, but also two- and three-bedroom apartments. And most importantly, each had its own water meter and electricity meter. We were still not satisfied with the rents, but they were gradually being adjusted. And we could finally control how much we paid for water and electricity ourselves. We chose the landlords again. It doesn't look bad there, but the houses are still crowded. Nothing is easy or ideal. Our plans didn't work out one hundred percent. However, we have managed to improve the situation in many families. They saw that even if we cannot solve all the problems, we can still do something. Today, no one here has any rent arrears and if they do, we can help them and guarantee them. However, there are also families that we are trying to activate for the fifth time. We do this because they have children. And these children are not going to want to live the same way as their parents.

Children are often victims of adverse circumstances and can carry the consequences with them throughout their lives. How have you been able to deal with this problem?

When we opened the club in the middle of the Greenhouses, we didn't like the idea of little kids wandering aimlessly around the estate all day. They were destroying our work. Here and there they made a hole in the wall, chopped into a bench, put rocks or mud in the sand, poured water in it or scattered papers on the street. They were looking for some entertainment so they wouldn't get bored. Just like any other kids. There were quite a lot of them. We began to realize that if our work was to be successful, we needed a nursery. But when we talked to parents about the fact that children should be in nursery, they always found a thousand reasons why the child couldn't go there. And even when it did go to nursery, it stayed in it for two days. And we also ran into another problem. When the children were about to start primary school, they were undergoing psychological tests with a child psychologist. Many were automatically enrolled in a special primary school. These were mainly children who had not attended kindergarten. It was really more difficult to include them in the large group of non-Roma children. We had to remedy that.

How did you do it?

I went to Banská Bystrica to see Jolana Nátherová, who was one of the first women to run an informal kindergarten. She had a lot of success behind her and, like us, she worked in a block of flats in an area where people had been evicted from the city. I visited her a couple of times as an observer. I got a lot of advice. And I started to prepare my own work team for the kindergarten. Some of the girls I used to work with in the ensemble have since grown up and graduated from high school. They all did a course on working with pre-school children during the year. I employed them and we opened an informal kindergarten in Detva. At the beginning there was a lot of interest, until we were worried about it. But I didn't want the city kindergarten to think that we wanted to replace them. We can't give the children as much as qualified teachers. And the city kindergarten provides more options, from a better environment to a greater selection of toys.

What was the aim of the informal kindergarten?

Our goal was just basic education. That's why I had to start dividing the children from Štúrová. It wasn't easy. Parents thought I liked some and not others. For about a month I was looking for a way to explain it to them. I didn't want to accept children who were from trouble-free families and could enter the "normal" city kindergarten. But when we opened the class, only three children came. We were unhappy about that for a while. But I told myself that if it was going to be three kids, it was going to be three kids. We took them out and we played. We had a carnival and a barbecue with their parents in the evening. We had a guitar, and we played and sang and reminisced. All of a sudden, other kids really wanted to join in.

How did you react to that?

I said that the barbecue is only for the children who come to our kindergarten and their parents. Our children then told the others where they had been and what they had been doing every day. And then they wanted to join in. They made their parents bring them in the morning. Eventually we had as many as 25 children in the nursery. But we didn't keep them with us the whole school year. When we saw that a child knew the basic colors, knew where they lived and how old they were, things they should know at that age, we moved them to the city kindergarten. At our school, there was only preparation for joining the collective. Gradually we moved and moved children until the time came when we had no one to move. That was absolutely fantastic. And later on, the children entered the city nurseries automatically. Today we don't need informal kindergarten anymore. Just in case something happens again.

Did it also help the children when they entered primary school? Did it stop them being automatically placed in special primary schools? Or did it at least reduce their numbers?

Yes, and very significantly. However, we have not dealt with it completely. We still have parents who went to a special primary school who say that their children are doing well there. They were supposedly doing well there too. They don't have to bring home bags and books and they do their homework at school. For some parents, it's easier. However, their numbers have dwindled so much that we have antagonised the head teacher of the special school. In every school, they fight over the kids. It's about money. Unfortunately, funding depends on the number of children. We had a big fight. We also had to push the child psychologist. I know that non-Roma children, unlike Roma children, are not automatically sent to her. We were still discussing which children really have to go to a special primary school and which do not. Moreover, I taught the parents that if they get an evaluation from her, they don't have to respect it. They started protesting and filing complaints. We demanded new psychological tests with an independent expert. I even called the school inspectorate. Eventually, they stopped. And there are very few Roma children in the special primary school today.

Your activities extend beyond the borders of Detva. You work with Roma women and you founded the Union of Roma Maternity Centres. When did you start this?

Ten years ago. The first meeting took place in Poltár. I knew nothing about the town. I said to myself that I would go there and have a look. There will be Roma there, I'll light up and see. I met three women on a street corner. They wanted to cross the road. I shouted for them to wait for me. I asked if I could invite them for coffee. It was cold outside and I wanted to talk to them. They were sniffing around. I said I would pay for their coffee. Finally they agreed. We sat down and I began to explain my plan to them, "If you want to sit at home, cooking, washing and ironing, sitting on the curb in front of your house, envying everyone around you and grumbling, you don't have to join in. But if you want to do something with yourself, now is your chance. Not with others, but just with yourself." They said that they knew me and that they knew what I was doing and how the Roma in Detva were doing well. I tell them they can join. I let them think about it. A week later I came back and there were fifteen women at the meeting. I started to explain to them that my main goal was to improve the quality of life of Roma women. If necessary, we can help in the community, but the priority will be the development of Roma women.

And it was a success...

Similarly, I approached women from other cities. Today we work in 10 locations. In some places they organize the activities themselves and just invite us. That was my goal. I am glad that many women were able to relax for the first time. They were freed from the household. Sometimes we just went for a beer together and got to know each other better. We often found that we had similar problems. When we talked openly about them, we were very relieved. Later on, they started to long for us to organise different activities regularly and often. We didn't even know how eight years had passed. And the whole group is still together and continues to grow. The most important thing is that people communicate with each other and help each other. If we don't communicate with each other, there won't be trust or even friendship between us. And that goes for my non-Roma friends as well. The feeling that someone supports you is no substitute for a one-time gift, no matter how big it is.

But you have also prepared other activities, such as sporting events.

We organised a football tournament on Roma and Romani Women's Day. Women from the maternity centres bought jerseys and sneakers and played football in the square in the middle of the town. In Detva, in Ziar and in Poltár. We wanted to show that we can do something other than singing and dancing, which is supposedly in our blood. Another time we were collecting rubbish. There is a beautiful little clearing near Poltár. We agreed with the miners that we would clean it up. Women came from all the localities. The men cooked goulash for us. We made a big banner and walked with it through the whole town. We blew whistles and chanted that we were going to clean the clearing. Then we went back to the town and had some of the goulash. We were joined by other people, including non-Roma. In the evening we sang and went home. And that's what our International Roma Day looked like.

Why did you choose football as your sport of choice?

We wanted to speak out for gender equality. For many men, football is very important. We also wanted to show that we like football. We could even play it. And that's why since 2009 we say it is also a day of Roma women.

You say that if you can improve the life of a woman, you can improve the life of the whole family.So women's activities are extremely important...

...and always have been. It's just that everybody doesn't want to admit it.

Why?

A men's ego, right? I always say we're feminists. Feminists who want to be treated as equals, not as beings who are supposed to serve men and families.

Now you have uttered something that no one will say about themselves. Many women will never say they are feminists, even though they want to be equal human beings. And it's probably not quite common among Roma women and Roma men.

It was a shock. When I said I was a feminist, guys started swearing. They couldn't put up with it. And my work with women started with going to visit them and having coffee with their men. I didn't persuade them. I wanted us to become friends. I invited everyone to our events. I don't know how it happens, but I can usually win people over. It turned out that several were telling their wives at home: "That Maryša, she's a woman! Sensible, smart, knows what she wants, and can help people." They say I'm a fantastic woman. I said to myself, "I'm going to take advantage of that. I went to these men and I told them: "Don't you want to be proud of your women? My husband is proud of me. And we believe in each other. Why would we live together if I couldn't move out of the house and not have my husband's trust and he doesn't have mine?" When a woman is out of the house, it's as if that automatically means she wants to do the man wrong and cheat on him.

How do you explain this?

It's a common notion in our community. I've always said that if I want to do wrong to someone, I'll do it and I don't even have to travel anywhere. If men don't trust their wives, they will stay at home. But if they want to be talked about like me, they can't stop them from traveling and meeting other people. I have always told them: "You have to decide together. You are a family and I didn't come to break it up. And if you want to make sure we don't do anything wrong, you can become a member. Join us. Children and men are no barrier to us. On the contrary. You are our support. And if you won't support us, there's no point in doing anything." And they liked that.

Did they? Did they get involved?

Yes. For example, in Poltár. When we do an event, they cook us goulash and prepare the premises. People from nearby towns come together. We talk and reminisce about everything we've done together. We call whole families. Children and grandmothers. Everybody. I like that we've made friends. Our meetings are not formal at all.

Did you encounter that some women wanted to get involved but couldn't because the men didn't agree?

Did you. But we don't force it. We tried a couple of times to get them involved, but when it didn't work, we left it at that. One must always think about whether we would harm someone. We don't want to cause arguments in families. But when we do an event in their place of residence, we go and ask their men to help. It takes its time.

And how are your activities perceived by other people in the community?

At first it was not so easy. When I started going to college in Nitra, it was an affair in Detva. They said, "What am I letting myself do? And my husband said he was stupid. The problem was that I went to lectures twice a month by myself. Always repeated it to him over a beer somewhere. Sometimes he'd come home and think out loud about what the others were telling him. But we talked it out. I told him I had my ideas about life and I didn't want to give them up. I couldn't have done it without him. He was tolerant, which is not the norm here. And he prided himself on having a wife who had goals and didn't give up. I went to different training courses quite often. I was grateful for every invitation, because we had to learn a lot first. He never gave me any trouble.

Not even in the past when you had children?

When my children were young, he was always home with them and supported me. My husband is a great man. He's usually at home or at work making sure we're comfortable. He's a housewife and I'm always away somewhere. But I have to say that I am respected in Detva also because my husband's family has always had a good reputation in Detva. I say that I was born under a lucky star and I always have the right people around me. And the "wrong" ones soon change their minds.

Your public work is well known in many circles, and in 2018 you received an award from the Mayor of Detva for your work. You started with folklore, which you have never left. In fact, it was through it that you got to help the wider community and work on the self-development of Roma women. And to municipal politics. How did that happen?

With Beata Berkyová we managed to get together 12 women from our Union of Maternity Centres. We were already working with them, but we had to persuade them a bit to enter politics. They were engaged in completely different activities. We spent half a year preparing them. We educated them in municipal politics. We talked to them about the powers and duties of local councillors. Then we gave them the space to decide for themselves whether they wanted to go for it. They were all a bit scared at the beginning. So we offered them support and arranged meetings with people. Eventually they agreed and went into the elections with great determination and conviction. They said they wanted to make a difference.

For us it was extremely important. And as we persuaded other women, we had to set an example ourselves. So Beata and I also ran. For MPs in Poltár and Detva. That also encouraged them. In the end, only two of them didn't run. In one locality it was because of the men. They couldn't put up with women running. The husband of the other one had health problems. But she was supportive and was with us all the time. So 10 women stood in 10 local governments. Apart from Detva and Poltár, it was Banská Štiavnica, Rovňany, Bystrička, Málinec... I can't remember the others at the moment.

How did they succeed in the elections?

Our candidate in Rovňany succeeded. However, we will continue to work on our own electoral strategy. We ran two candidates as independents and the others as candidates of political parties. We told them that they could also run as independents, but they would have to collect signatures. Some of them did not want to run for a political party and were convinced that they could collect enough signatures. But after weighing up the situation, we said to ourselves that we were doing this for the first time and it would be better for them to join a group from which they could get moral support and maybe even votes. I think it was not in vain and they are winners just because they showed courage. And those who did not succeed will at least serve on council committees. Never before in Slovakia have so many Roma women decided to stand for election. I am very proud of them. They have won the battle with themselves.

The interview was first published on 17 February 2020 in the daily Pravda.

Translated by deepl.com. Not edited.